Category Archives: web 2.0

Web 2.0 – Andre Conru,

Web 2.0 – High Order Bit
What can we learn from the Adult Industry?
Andrew Conru, CEO
10/6/04 If you told someone you were in the adult industry 10 years ago, they’d think your nuts. But this is one of the largest segments of Internet traffic on the Net today.

What can we learn?

The first personals site was in 1993, adknowledge in 1995, friendfinder in 1996. Now we have a dozen Internet web companies and 80 destination sites.

The friendfinder online communities have 75,000 registrations per day, run by a private company employing 180 people. At 845 megabytes per minute, we are larger than all the Disney sites and are in league with Google for minutes spent on our sites.

With our first adult site, we learned a lot from the adult webmasters who were into scary hardcore…. math. They’re all chasing the short quick buck of short term ROI and profit. Get visitors to your site with as little cost as possible and convert those visitors as paid visitors. Some sites do nothing but get people to the front door of other sites and some sites specialize in getting the conversions. These webmaster also brought us such innovations as affiliate marketing programs, popup ads, toolbars, downloadable clients, spyware, and collaborative traffic networks.

Adult sites were driven to innovate with 1000 participants and a hypercompetitive environment. The tail in this industry is long.

So what can we learn? Let’s collaborate together. We need to do self-regulated cleanup of our sites and practices. And we need to understand the tradeoffs between short term ROI and customer experience.

Web 2.0 – Brewster Kahle, co-founder Alexa Internet

Web 2.0 – High Order Bit
Brewster Kahle
(not a transcript) Idea of Web 2.0 is the integration between government, for-profit, non-profit and educational sectors. We need to smooth out the problems of Silicon Valley. And we can do it if people are bold enough to talk about it all.

Altavista said we’ll just index the whole web. Jeff Bezos said let’s just sell everything. The let’s do it all type of people are successful in a profit world.

We’re doing this with non-digital media.


There are 26 million books in the Library of Congress. Half of these books are out of copyright and a larger number of them are in print. Only a small sliver are actually in print. A typical book digitized is a megabyte. For 26 terabytes, we can digitize 60,000 books. So we’re in the realm of being able to pull this off and you can get this online. Google has announced that they’re following the ‘look inside the book’ idea and are digitizing print materials. It costs $10/book to digitize overseas. They’re working in Toronto to use robotic technology so that it even costs $10/book in 1st world libraries. So for $260 million, we can scan the entire Library of Congress. We can do that!

The bigger question is what we are allowed to scan. We can scan books out of copyright, but we have to find out which books these are. So we’re rekeying the copyright registration records to be able to find out which books they are.

We also have book in copyright but out of print. Kids todays are not going to libraries to do research so we have these orphans languishing in libraries. Most of these books are from the 20th century and there are over 8 million of them. We have filed lawsuit (kahle v. ashcroft) to try to be allowed to get out of print, copyrighted works onto the net. We’re using the non-profit sphere to help in this socially critical venture.

While it’s nice to read books on the screen, let’s get books in our hands. We can print and bind a 100 page book for $1. That’s cheaper than lending a book from a library, which costs $2 according to Harvard. We’re using bookmobiles to do this in countries such as India, Eqypt, Uganda and it’s work. So we have an integrated process in this book to book idea. Scan a book, use the Internet and then print the book.


In audio, there are 2-3 million disks, lps, cds, etc. And this is a very litigated area. So what can we do with music?

Not very many people are served well by the publishing industry. We have rock and roll bands publishing cds, but also allowing the tape trading of their concerts. So there are about 200,000 songs. The fringe area is served well by the Internet. There are more folk songs, and other non-mainstream genres. This is building up the non-profit record labels, but they need help posting their stuff.

We allow unlimited bandwidth and storage indefinitely for anyone who wants to share their media with a creative commons license. If you want to give things away, now there is an institutional way.


Are moving images too big to store? There are about 100,000-200,000 movies and 1/2 of them are Indian. So it’s doable to store them, but copyright is a big issue. There are about 600 films not in copyright protection, and about 300 of them are on the web. You can watch them, cut them up, and make your own movies.

Web 2.0 is about building on what others have done. Lego movies is a whole genre where people have stories to tell but no budget to tell them.


We are currently recording 20 channels of television 24 hours a day in DVD quality recording. We have about a petabyte of data, but making it available is a thorny rights battle.


We have changed the DMCA to allow us to digitize and rip software. It was opposed by the software industry, but the US Copyright Office allowed us. We have in 96 through our web archive. 20 terabytes a month of web archiving, or about a Library of Congress per month. There are 50 million websites and people publishing all the time.

Backups of the Backups

We have a copy of all our data in San Francisco, Egypt, and Amsterdam. So that we don’t loose everything like when the original libraries were burned. We are currently working on a beta search on our site. Please visit us and help us pass on our collective knowledge to the next generation:

Web 2.0 – Joe Kraus – JotSpot Demo

Web 2.0 – High Order Bit Joe Kraus, Founder, 10/6/2004 Introduction of JotSpot

Wikis are growing like weeds. They centralize information that has previously been scattered among organizations. Information was previously joined by hyperlinks, but wikis allow you to gather the information into one place. The first phase of the web was populating the small pieces of information. Web 2.0 is to increase the number of ways to join the information together. There is no generalized way to loosely join multiple pieces together.

The customization of software has lead to software that doesn’t work the way you think it should, it works the way the company thinks it should. We need customizability, flexibility, light weight software for specific needs.

We have built a web-based software that looks like a wiki. It is a platform that loosely joins information together that is spread across email and business applications. It’s an application wiki.

Example: VPEngineering Wiki

If you have Homer Simpson as your top candidate for a job, you can type in a description for him in a wysiwyg interface. You can attach his resume (excel or word document with an html preview). Our software provides version control and allows you to compare and switch to different versions of a document. You can manage email between Homer and yourself. And every page in the wiki is an email address, so you can cc his page with an email and authentication code and send it out. There are full page permissions so you can control who sees what.

You can rank Homer with a 3 and save that he’s visiting on 10/15. With a form you can collect rank and full name and can edit the form to include his next visit. This form will be in a wysiwyg editor. Then you can apply this form structure to Homer’s page and now you can edit the page to fill in the form. The software automatically generates table of all the people with the same information. And now VPEngineering candidates and calendar information all in one place.

You can start with abstract information and then add structure. You can integrate a news feed by placing it into the form. So if we add integrate a news feed into a form with search for Homer’s previous company and also pull in a google search on Homer. Homer’s page and all pages with this form inherited has this information integrated into it. So now you have a clickable pull down information with yahoo news and google search on it.

Now from our labs, you can integrate into If you’re in salesforce’s page, you can setup a form to gather information automatically. And get realtime information about your customers.

We’ve started off with a wiki and built more structure around the principles of a wiki.

Web 2.0 – Jeff Bezos – What is Web 2.0?

Jeff Bezos – What is Web 2.0?
(not a transcript)

Web 0.0 was the original Amazon, which had 1 million titles and was just static html. No search on the home page, it was a click away. This is a one size fits all approach. (search on for a look).

Web 1.0 is Amazon today with personalization, dynamic content, content which is created by humans but placed by computers. The site is customized and is a result of 9 years of innovation, problem solving, mistakes and moving forward. Web 1.0 is about making the web interface better for humans.

Web 2.0 will be Amazon’s web services and about making the internet useful for computers. The webservices make the customer reviews, product images, product attributes, sales rank and shopping cart available in an api. The business model is that this helps Amazon sell more products by having other people innovate with their services. Amazon pays people to use them through their affiliate program.

Web 2.0 will be Amazon’s web services and about making the internet useful for computers. The webservices make the customer reviews, product images, product attributes, sales rank and shopping cart available in an api. The business model is that this helps Amazon sell more products by having other people innovate with their services. Amazon pays people to use them through their affiliate program.

Alexa web service is an example which has 100 terabytes of web crawl available to anyone who wants to use it. You can pass them a url to see if the site has adult content. You can find out of a site is slow or fast, or find all the leaks on a site. You can see usage patterns on the web. is done by 2 people in France. If you search for indigo girls, it will bring up a 3 dimensional search results where you can see all the groups and artists which are related and how through a flash based interface. If you click on a link, it goes to amazon to allow you buy the album. This shows the value of the Amazon web services in allowing 1000 different flowers to bloom and to expose all types of different innovators. is written by a software engineer whose wife sells used books on Amazon. She used to go out to garage sales to find used books and was spending too much time doing this. The engineer used cell phones with barcode readers attached to connect to scoutpal to get back real time data from Amazon about how much the book costs. This is something that Amazon may have thought about, but it would not have been very high on the priorities. With the open Amazon api, it lets the ecosystem develop. is Amazon’s search engine. If you search for clark gable carole lombard, it brings back multiple columns of results (web, images, etc.) which open different results sets. It uses googles services for web and image results, for movies, for reference info. An internal service is provided to allow you to search your site history which is stored on their server for universal access from wherever you are accessing the site.

Web 2.0 is about thin front ends which tap into web services with powerful back ends.

Web 2.0 – A Conversation with John Doerr

Web 2.0 – A Conversation with John Doerr
Partner, Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers
Interviewed by John Heilemann
10/5/04 John Heilemann (JH):
Everyone is talking about Google and we know you were involved with their IPO. People thought you were nuts 5 years ago to invest in Google. Do you attribute your success to wise-all knowingness or blind luck?

John Doerr (JD):
I’m nuts. I’m lucky in my investments more than wise. Search was the 2nd most used thing on the web. They had revenues and Stanford dropouts.

There was some reluctance about being a public company and how comfortable they would be with the changes. What types of discussions did you have about that?

Google waited as long as they could. They didn’t need the cash, but they had an implicit agreement with the employees that they would go.

Google seems to want their cake and eat it too. Do they feel beholden to the shareholders now?

Their behavior has changed. They have a long term view of business and opportunity. The 30 year old cofounders will be there for a long time.

Tell us about the process of going public and its high and low points.

The process worked out well. The high was raising $1.7 billion. The auction seemed to work well. There was a fear that if we had an auction and the price discovery didn’t work, the price may go way down. The democratic stock auction seemed to work well.

Google scaled back on their price and size of their offering and the price discovery seemed to have worked. Was that an embarassment or the virtue of the auction system?


Where is Google headed? Are they future oriented?

Up and to the right. They want to offer more comprehensiveness in search and their results. They want to offer access to more information that’s not currently available on the web. Better international coverage. More personalized – a Google that knows you. And a deeper advertising network with more products.

Can you be more specific in a more concrete way for the short term? Most people anticipated your announcement earlier today (inside the book type of searches).

It should be deployed in the next few weeks.

What type of defense of Google is involved in that? Web 2.0 idea that it’s more complicated than the second iteration…?

When you apply string theory to the web, you see a different way to categorize things. You have the near web, which is pcs, far web (tv, web), here web (mobile), weird web (3D, VRML, talk to it and it talks back), b2b web, d2d web, kimbo web….

Browsers are going to come back. Google has the ambition to serve most users with the most information and serve advertisers who pay for users to get the information.

Are Google and Amazon in direct collision course?


What’s the next big thing?

Clean distributed energy. Clean water. Cleaner transportation. Sequencing DNA. Finding a cure for cancer. And web services.

Can you expand on web services?

Targeted services for handheld web devices. Tracking services so women can track their spouses. Upgrades of the Internet backbone to fiber and all optical switching. Filters based upon 3 million people on mobile phones so that you only get the most relevant information. Storage and computer power are going up and prices are coming down.

Non-web opportunities?

Aggregate all backlist information for videos. Be wary of getting in the way of large companies.

What about the controversy with Google in China? Do you see forsee that conflict with more businesses?

Yes. The Chinese government shut down Google by controlling the routers in China. If you want to be a robust partner in countries, you have to observe the rules inside those countries. Google is committed to democracy. People who have left China want unfiltered information. Google wants to become the search engine for democracy.

Importance of politics on society and businesses. Current role of the web on the election cycle. What type of disintermediating impact does the web have on politics?

Howard Dean showed the power of the web. Kerry had a record day with the Howard scream. The McCain legislation put the caps on the DNC and RNC. Policy really matters even if you’re nonpolitical so pay attention even to global bills.

Can you give us an example of b2b rss field?

Wikis which companies use to build or promote their products.

Most web innovation in the past has come out of US companies. What extend do you see international companies participating in web 2.0 or leading the way? What VC are you investing in?

In Web 2.0 most innovation will come in global companies that have presence in China or India, but the innovators will come from the US. In Web 3.0, innovation may come from others. US educational institutions are not performing well. That puts the sand in the gears of innovation. We’re not welcoming foreigns into the universities, and if they do get in, they often leave. If you staple a green card to every diploma, you may get more of them to stay. So we have some big policy problems to address for Web 3.0.

I have some privacy concerns with Gmail. But what is the difference in how Google respects Germany and China?

China is not respecting international law, it’s respecting executive law. Google is not censoring the Chinese audience, it is just complying with the Chinese executive law. It feels that if it is going to help the citizens in the future, it needs to be able to be there. To do that, it needs to comply for now to get the foot in the door.

Web 2.0 – Mark Cuban, HDNet

Web 2.0 – Interview with Mark Cuban by John Battelle


Mark found The Benefactor to be like a college dorm where you hang out with different people, but with 1 million dollars on the line, it was a lot of fun. His blog is the chance for him to get everything off his chest. It is very personal and he doesn’t care what others think about what he posts. It’s his voice for making sure that what he says gets out, instead of what the big media puts into a sound bite. He enjoys using his blog to ‘nail’ the big media.

Mark got heckled a few times about his sports team and had never been heckled at a tech. conference before. Sports are something that people get passionate about as an outlet. It is a natural extension for Mark to communicate with his customers about their shared passion.

When Mark bought a HD set in 99 with DirectTv, he was mesmorized watching the same 90 minute movie over and over. He researched the business and found that there is a whole industry mindset that hdtv is so expensive. He looked at the HDset and saw a pc without a keyboard and a huge opportunity. There currently is not enough bandwidth for HD – cable and satellite are constrained so there is a land rush waiting to happen and Mark is locking up the territory. Everywhere there is a death war (satellite v. cable) there’s an opportunity.

We’re seeing a lot of death wars – LCD v. Plasma, RCA, etc. for digital sets. Whose box is going to store media in the home. Analog tv is eating up bandwidth and we’re not seeing an explosion of bandwidth in the home. However, the cost per gigabyte of storage is going down. Maybe the delivery mechanism isn’t the Internet, maybe we preload everything on hard drives. With digital rights management we can turn items on and off. 1 terabyte hard drive delivered overnight is the equivalent of 7 Mbs and the cost is going down.

Dvd death wars are fun. They cost Mark nothing and lead to a different delivery method. Load all the content you want on an $99 hard drive, even if it’s user-chosen, add some cost for shipping and cost and you’re still out ahead of the game. is his toy and a bunch of kids coming up with neat ideas. He loves the google and yahoo death war which is bringing out lots of features and fun. He takes a relevance perspective for searching and searches for incremental information for the same topic and none of the search engines are there yet. He wants to know what’s new on the web, not what’s the most relevant.

Search is going to have to have specific flavors for specific types of people and search types. If someone has a specific way to approach something, then people who agree with that will flock there.

Mark is a natural born short seller and always looking for the problems instead of the pitch. The stock market is closer to a scam than a really market. Cnn is like the qvc for stocks. Likes to choose companies he can work with to help them (hdnet). Strategic choices make sense as an investment.

The Mark Cuban Rorschach Test

Tivo – sell software, forget hardware, can replicate software to get ubiquity. Sony – smart people, need coordination between divisions. Yahoo – brilliant job, good futures, room for them and google. Google – index alternative media, meta info for alternative types and leverage that. Comcast – smart people taking over, but not smart enough to pick up Hdnet. David Stern – nice guy, too much a lawyer. The NBA is almost one of the worst managed business, not as bad as hockey. The issues are long term, but can be easily fixed, but lawyers approach things as lawyers. David Trump – how to fail in business. Richard Branson – best of the 3 of us. Kobe – what an idiot, he made his own problems and every time he has one he makes it deeper.

His comment about controversy being good for the NBA did not mean that a rape trial is a good thing. It meant that we’ve become such a tabloid nation and we cover everything to the Nth degree that all the seconds of highlights which have been posted everywhere have driven the ratings of the NBA up. Americans love storylines and sports writers are all about scoop. Which is funny because the minute I give a write a scoop, it’s everywhere else 30 seconds later. Blogs provide the indepth story and will make the media better.

Apple – Apple is a nice player. Ipod is a great first step, but it will probably be one-upped like everything else. EFF – great for independent movie makers. There’s a movie up for CON that was made on $104.

Web 2.0 – Jeff Bezos and Tim O’Reilly

Web 2.0 – Tim O’Reilly and Jeff Bezos

(not a transcript!)


Tim: Apple – rip, mix, burn Rss and web services allow us to do this with the web. At what point does this trip over business models?

Jeff: If there’s real value, businesses will be able to find a way to charge for them and to pay for them. We will charge for Alexa when it comes out of beta, but we don’t know how much yet. We need to explore that. There will be business models and they will evolve with the web. People will always be able to figure out how to make money.

Web services is a special case because there’s a built in business model.

Tim: Ebay and Amazon lucked out because there’s a built in business model for them. Google has not, which is why is still in beta. We first met over the one-click patent issue, which is one unique aspect of what could be exposed as a web service.

Jeff: The shopping cart is available now. We’ve thought about one-click.

Tim: You have a digital identity system with millions of customers in a trust relationship.

Jeff: How do you charge for that? We have to experiment, but I don’t see a reason not to expose more things over time.

We find the useful guts in Amazon and expose them to see what other people do to find useful ways to use it that surprise us.

Tim: Amazon has continued to innovate. We could describe you as a change junkie. You guys have nailed e-commerce and yet worked hard at becoming more than that with everything we’ve talked about. Not a single other site invites users in as much and that has paid off. You were early to embrace Amazon as a platform, so what’s the secret ingredient?

Jeff: Companies need to find unique aspects which users can enjoy and figure out how to make that into a business model. The community aspect with customer reviews and list mania influences the user experience. We have never had a business model with strong network effects. Customers are loyal until someone offers them a better service, so we must keep innovating. Architecture participation is the way for innovation. We invite customers to participate in the website. Anything, whether network effect or not, which creates improvements in customer experience may be a huge effort, but is worth it in the long run.

Tim: Your search became harder with search inside the book because the results would show content inside of the book instead of keyword matches on a title.

Jeff: We can measure accurately whether search algorithm changes create an improvement or not by testing simultaneous database results to see which generates more sales. Sales is a noise free indicator. But we don’t mind robots with credit cards either. We’re not guessing when we make changes.

Tim: I’d love to see the data. We’ll get to audience questions soon. Ok the x-prize has been won. And lots of Internet entrepreneurs that made their fortunes young and are now doing kickass stuff. What makes this generation have a different bent on what to do with their money?

Jeff: Oh God.

Tim: New passion to change the world.

Jeff: People follow their passions. I want to get up there.

Gary Wolfe – Wired: Search inside the book is exciting because of the underlying data gathering function in scanning the data in. There’s an issue going further in the sense of data which is proprietary or not available. What type of data do you long for which could be the basis for web services to really work. What data do you long for that we can’t get to now?

Jeff: The type of data which is not in digital form but is valuable and proprietary. There are 2 kinds of problems. Search inside the book addresses non-digital form. And the other is a business model issue, but it will get easier over time. Real editorial team and real effort are involved in creating this valuable content.

GW: How can we get at that data?

Jeff: SIB is allowing people to sample at the point of sale. At the point of sale is important because sampling increases sales. It’s an effective technique. Physical bookstores allow you to sample books. iTunes is an example of this working in the web world.

Tim: There’s a third data problem, which is data which is either digital or not, but where the rights are ambiguous. In the early days people would play fast and loose if there was no real value. With music, at first it was ok, but not it’s not. People clamp down on value.

Q: To improve the experience for the least common denominator, is html cross-browser better or something outside the browser?

Jeff: I continue to see the browser getting better and better. In A9 you can drag and drop bookmarks into the bookmark button. You can drag all the components around. JavaScript makes this all possible. We’ll see more and more robust but lightweight apps on the web.

Tim: An example of a plugged in non-browser experience is iTunes.

Q: In 10 year chunks or more, capitalism aside, do you see the emergence of massive online universes? What’s the intersection for you?

Jeff: I’m a big Gibson and Stephenson fan and I’m in favor of such universes and I think they’re likely to happen. You’re starting to see them in the SIMs and MPGS and how involving they are. People spend huge portions of their lives in these universities.

Tim: In Hong Kong there are companies similar to sweat shops where people play EverQuest and see the identities on Ebay.

Jeff: Maybe we’re in the universe now (Matrix).

Web 2.0 – Gian Fulgoni, comScore Networks, Inc.

Web 2.0 – High Order Bit

Gian Fulgoni, comScore Networks, Inc.

(not a transcript)

comScore has an opt-in, global database of consumer data which they do not market and where data is private. It provides a 360 degree view of consumers based upon proper sampling methods.

The key trend they’ve found is that while growth of the Internet is abating, growth in broadband is unabated. 50% of home users have broadband. Broadband is a key driver to how people use the Internet. Spending on US sites is going up because having broadband increases a consumer’s spending habits. As users gain experience they are also more likely to spend more. Back in 2000, you wouldn’t have thought that most of the categories of items sold could be bought online. Now people are buying high ticket items such as furniture and cars online.

Consumers are willing to pay for content. There is 1 billion spent per year on paid content, most of which is in the dating category. Consumers are also getting over security concerns. There are 20 million accounts registered with online banks. 20% of all people with an online banking account use online billpay.

P2P is going down after recently lawsuit rulings.

Search is the key driver of online research and buying. 20% of searchers are doing 70% of searches. As heavy and medium searchers increase there should be more online buying.

Low cost leaders are going to be successful. Search is the medium of choice for buying decisions or lifestyle decisions. Browsing activity can be used to forecast auto sales and government.

Copy of the presentation available at comScore.

Web 2.0 – Bill Gross, Demo

Web 2.0 – High Order Bit
Bill Gross, Idealab!
(not a transcript)
Bill Gross is passionate about search. It is powerful and technologically challenging to deliver good results. Observe search on the web and how people look for things and find what they’re looking for.

There have been 3 breakthroughs in the past: the full text index of the entire web, price strength and link strength.

Search really begins when the results page is shown. That’s when the journey begins. They’ve researched into improving how people find what they’re really looking for. Working together, they’ve come up with 3 innovations: user control, user feedback and transparency. User control is the ability to control search results and change their order. User feedback to take what other searches have been done and post click actions as feedback. Transparency in exposing every action and transaction to find more relevant results.

Unveiling of (beta)

If you search for jaguar, it brings up a list of results with context sensitive columns that you can re-order. If you refine your search, the interface does real time reduction of the results. You can interact and sort in real time.

If you search for camera, it brings up a different results set which has a table at the top which is structured data on prices. As you click on data on the top table, more information is shown on each item within a different section of the page. The regular web results are below and both sets of results can be reduced and re-ordered independently in real time.

Searching on walmart brings in a feed from isps for user feedback. The top of the page has a stock feed and picture of walmart’s web site. By using aggregation of user patterns from isp data, which is not easy to spam, they can provide real user feedback of searched results.

The problem with current search engines is that the top listings are not always the most relevant for what you’re looking for.

Snap is exposing everything about the site, how people can advertise with them and stats of the system. There is a blog on the front page about how the development is going.

Web 2.0 – Jeff Bezos

Watching Jeff Bezos outside the banquet hall during the Web 2.0 conference. It’s a cocktail party and there’s lots of schmoozing going on. There is a little gathering of people flitting around Jeff as they wait their turn to have 3 minutes to get their say in. Jeff is extremely outgoing and friendly and I can hear him laughing from here. He stops to grab an occasional appetizer from the waiter or greet someone he knows as they pass. Everyone I’ve heard talk to him gets his personal email address <!– var prefix = ‘ma’ + ‘il’ + ‘to’; var path = ‘hr’ + ‘ef’ + ‘=’; var addy58178 = ‘jeff’ + ‘@’ + ‘amazon’ + ‘.’ + ‘com’; var addy_text58178 = ‘jeff’ + ‘@’ + ‘amazon’ + ‘.’ + ‘com’; document.write( ‘‘ ); document.write( addy_text58178 ); document.write( ” ); //–> This email address is being protected from spam bots, you need Javascript enabled to view it . He says that’s the only one he has. His speech at the keynote address was funny, fast-paced and interesting. Much of what was ‘ should do this’ in the workshops today was unveiled as Amazon’s web services. Not only does Jeff know the Internet as it stands, he understands how to innovate and is well beyond the infomercial many of the other presenters gave.I like a guy who is approachable. That’s a man who understands that ideas flow from the little person. That is reflected in Amazon’s api. Jeff understands that whoever uses their API eventually drives traffic to Amazon’s site and adds to a sale.